Fertility of soil.

[skarloey]

Hi all,

MIL has given me 1/2 her allotment and I spent my first morning there today. ;D
There are still 4 rows of spuds in my bit but I was able to get in there and have a good old tidy up and a bit of a dig to see what the soil is like.
Now my soil at home is fairly clayey (is that a word?) and has loads of worms in it. The allotment soil, which is only 4 miles away, is much sandier and I didn't find one worm. I found a couple of those orange centipedes and oodles of slugs and snails but that was it! Not even many birds.
Is it because of the sandy nature of the soil that makes it lacking in worms or is it because the soil is spent? This can be rectified BTW as MIL has 2 horses and a massive pile of manure that will soon be shifted to the allotment.
I always thought my clayey soil was a bit of a problem but feeling the difference between the two has convinced me it's actually probably better.
BTW, these are the ramblings of an amateur and I would love to hear your opinions.
Whatever the weather, I'm still very excited about the acquisition of my new plot and can't wait to get growing!
Skarloey.

[4pygmies]

Hello Skarloey, My soil is very sandy but also has lots of worms after years of goat muck. It's a lovely soil for growing things like carrots, onions, herbs etc. Stuff which doesn't like a very rich soil and prefers good drainage. It's a total pain in a drought though as it retains water like a colander! I should think with a mixture of both you have the best of both worlds..

[skarloey]

Hi 4P,

Thanks for the reply, I dug an area of probably 6sq meters/yards just to get the feel of things and there honestly was not one worm.
So I reckon it's double digging time for me!! With tonnes of poo!
And yes, I've had some very odd shaped carrots at home so I'm looking forward to growing some straight ones at the lottie.

Skarloey.

[veggardener]

Hi Skarloey!

The late & great Geoff Hamilton once said of his Barnsdale clay soil, 'give me my Bransdale clay anytime in preference to that free draining sandy stuff'.
Earlier this year I had had the pleasure of visiting Barnsdale, it was very evident from the lushness (even in the summer heatwave) of the place exactly what he meant.

Although my own garden is basically on red clay, the adding of humus in its various forms by me and my father before me over the past 50 years, has resulted in about 16/18 inches of beautiful, friable, and fertile top soil.

[Deleted]

skarloey said:

And yes, I've had some very odd shaped carrots at home so I'm looking forward to growing some straight ones at the lottie.

Lucky you with the Lottie! Very jealous. But I've always been led to believe carrots absolutely love unimproved sandy soil, so maybe not so much Double Diamond for the roots patch?

[skarloey]

David, just another 48 1/2 years to go then!! ;D

CC, I've heard not to manure me onions too but if the soil is soooo poor, will they grow at all?

Thanks for your advice chaps.... and Geoff's of course, you know, I think I'm getting a bit better at this gardening lark! ;D ;D ;D

Skarloey

[jlottie]

Hi Skarloey

I've got loads of slate to contend with, seems worse one end of the plot which also seems to be drier too. Same as you lots of poo and compost I think. Enjoy your plot

[skarloey]

Hi Jlottie,

Been to MILs horse field today to collect the first 8 bags of poo. There is the most enormous pile rotting down nicely but me being a cheeky cow took the stuff already in bags. Only another few hundred to go..... for this year anyway.

[veggardener]

captaincabbage said:

skarloey said:

And yes, I've had some very odd shaped carrots at home so I'm looking forward to growing some straight ones at the lottie.

Lucky you with the Lottie! Very jealous. But I've always been led to believe carrots absolutely love unimproved sandy soil, so maybe not so much Double Diamond for the roots patch?

CC, I totally agree. Sandy soil is much better for carrots, parsnips etc - resulting in less forking of the roots.

[veggardener]

skarloey said:

David, just another 48 1/2 years to go then!! ;D

CC, I've heard not to manure me onions too but if the soil is soooo poor, will they grow at all?

Thanks for your advice chaps.... and Geoff's of course, you know, I think I'm getting a bit better at this gardening lark! ;D ;D ;D

Skarloey

Skarloey

It is advisable to manure ground for growing onions, but not carrots and parsnips as this causes the roots to fork.

Practicing crop rotation is the best way of insuring that each crop gets the correct conditions.

[4pygmies]

Mmm...manure. I know it's perverse but I really enjoy this time of year; clearing the beds and mucking out the goats with all their lovely stuff. I practise the deep bed method of goat keeping - VERY deep bed, I muck out 3/4 times a year and it goes straight into the soil, thereby cutting out all the problems I've had in the past with rats in the compost bins. It's gorgeous stuff. I must admit to being a bit slack with my crop rotation too - my quick rule is "above ground one year, below the next". And when I dig out a bed I know must be really rich for next year I chop up comfrey leaves and dig them in, but only in Autumn. It's not very scientific, I know, but it's kept us in our favourite veggies for years now.

[veggardener]

Hi 4p!

Although I've no experience of goats muck, I would imagine it's not unlike sheep muck. In my opinion sheep muck has to be the very very best.

In the old days, sheep muck was used for making a liquid feed by filling a hessian sack with it and leaving it to soak in a tank of water - rather like a large tea bag!

Btw, I very much like your 'above ground, below ground' crop rotation regime.

[owainglyndwr]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading (and learning) with these posts. Hopefully you will all stay around to educate a country bumpkin into next year !!

[Deleted]

veggardener said:

In the old days, sheep muck was used for making a liquid feed by filling a hessian sack with it and leaving it to soak in a tank of water - rather like a large tea bag!

As in Ewe only get an Ewe with Typhewe?

[owainglyndwr]

What about PG Tips and the monkeys CC? <forgotten the winking smiley>

[Deleted]

Now just assuming 4 Pygmies invites us round for a cuppa.....I just neeeed to be reassured her goats are not called, Assam, Earl Grey, Darjeeling and Aldi's Round Bags...

[owainglyndwr]

lol And I thought I'd lost a few brain cells along the way of life ... Osama would be a lot worse than Assam ... unless my intelligience reports aren't up to date? <blow me up and I won't feel a thing until tomorrow smiley>

[skarloey]

David,

I'm splitting the plot into 3 (I've got the 4th as my little plot at home) and one of the lottie 3 will be the roots bed. I'm still sure the soil is sooo poor though even for roots so will I chuck anything in it? Chicken pellets? Normal bags of compost? Or will roots really grow in extra poor soil so should I just leave it alone?
I know, I know so many questions, I'm just very eager to do it properly!!

Thanks everyone for your time in answering, Skarloey

Oh and can you make horse poo tea like the goats poo stuff? ;D

[4pygmies]

Here, who's calling my lovely goats weapons of mass destruction? (Are you? Too early in the morning...) You're all welcome round here for a cup of me best goat teabags anyday! I'll get out the vintage brew in your honour laced with a bit of comfrey tea I made and forgot about 3 years ago - found it in under a nettle forest - phoar........!
Skarloey - RELAX! If your soil has been enriched with any kind of muck and you've left it to aerate and wormify (new word - meaning to let the bugs have a rootle overwinter), it will be fine! Goats, chickens, horse, guinea pig, rabbits - all produce good muck. In my experience though it's best to dig it in deep as a lot of these creatures (apart from horses) are very messy eaters and the rats are drawn to any stuff that still contains food from their bowls. And with carrots, if you're still concerned about poor soil structure, you can muck it but it will need to overwinter before you sow in it or you could dig it all out layer in muck and put the top soil back over it. I'm sure you know all this anyway!
And PS Aldi's Round Bags suits my boss nanny as a name - round and bad tempered if she's not fed first - still they say pets get like their owners........

[skarloey]

Morning 4P,

Thanks for that, just need to be told firmly at times you can now consider me totally relaxed ;D.

Gonna be off down the lottie in a mo to double dig my first row! If I do one at a time, it doesn't seem that daunting.

Thanks again for the advice,

Skarloey

[veggardener]

"As in Ewe only get an Ewe with Typhewe?"

Groan!!

CC, that could have only come from ewe!! ;D

[oldmoleskins]

Whoa boy!! double digging? The whole lot?? Makes me come over all faint just to think about it.
4P is absolutley right (as she usually is), take it easy...

You won't be needing this bed for a while yet. I don't know what scale you're growing on. but assuming 'normal' family needs (so we're not talking redigging the Panama Canal), why not open a trench down the length of the veg bed, say 12inches deep and the same wide. Chuck in anything you come across in the way of manure, good home-made compost - anything good - to a depth of three or four of those inches, and bury the lot later, when you've finished 'collecting' and when you've got the energy.
I'm talking over the next couple of months here, not today!!

Bury it before the frosts (so it's relatively warm down there and continues to 'work') and by next season you'll have a strip of fertile potential. Since it was dug and refilled only a few months before, it won't need much reworking to plant out.

Don't forget to mark where it is!!
OM

[veggardener]

skarloey said:

Morning 4P,

Thanks for that, just need to be told firmly at times you can now consider me totally relaxed ;D.

Gonna be off down the lottie in a mo to double dig my first row! If I do one at a time, it doesn't seem that daunting.

Thanks again for the advice,

Skarloey

Hi Skarloey

Sorry to be a little late with this. However, I totally agree with everything 4p says.

Good luck!

[jlottie]

4pygmies said:

. I must admit to being a bit slack with my crop rotation too - my quick rule is "above ground one year, below the next

Hi 4P

Great idea, I keep intending to make a crop rotation plan for my plot but it never seems to work out as it should, simple ideas always work the best

jl

[skarloey]

Me again!!

Yes I know I'm banging on a bit about this soil but..... I now don't think it's all that sandy at all, I think it's ASH!
I had a look at the other plots soil and theirs aren't as grey/dusty as mine and when I took the trench down 15 inches and then dug below that, low and behold, I had some lovely soil, WITH worms!
As I say, I dug an 18 inch wide trench down 15 inches then turned the bottom of that trench over with a fork then I put 3inches of horse poo in half filled it back up, put another couple of inches of horse poo in then completely back filled it.
The only thing that concerns me is, I don't know what sort of ash it is and I know that coal ash can contain some pretty horrid stuff including arsenic . How long do you reckon the nasties would stay in the soil if it is coal ash?
Oh crap, I've just re-read this post and I'm actually beginning to bore myself now.
Thanks for your patience,
Skarloey.

[4pygmies]

DON'T PANIC!!! It's probably just a bonfire residue and, if that's the case, it's GOOD! And you're not being boring, just flapping a bit! If you're really worried about it being coal, have a go at sieving it out and then you can build a cinder path...if it's just ash, it's fantastically full of potash etc and is fine to be dug into the ground. You can always mix it with soil and compost. It's very likely just where previous occupants have been burning rubbish, a time honoured way to recycle on allotments. I'm as sure as I can be that it's nothing to worry about. The fact that you've found worms is a sign that all's well underneath. At least you get some answers - I posted ages ago about orchard pruning and nary a one replied.....but never mind, I'll just get my books out and have a go!

[skarloey]

Hi again 4P,

I don't think I made myself clear earlier, it's not a bit of ash, it's about 6 inches of topsoils worth!!!! Albeit mixed with a bit of soil but it had rained a little last night and the soil was still extremely dusty to at least 6-10 inches deep.
Sorry I can't help with the orchard questions but I can see if I can chivvy anyone up on the thread! ;D

Regards, Skarloey.

[4pygmies]

I appreciate the shouty message! Wonder if anyone will reply? And about your ash - years of bonfires then......still not too much of a problem - I should try and spread it around a bit and dig in lots of muck - it may be a bit strenuous but I still don't think it will affect your crops necessarily. If it's still a pain I should temporarily put a compost heap there for a couple of seasons.....or a raised bed or four.

[skarloey]

Hi 4P,

You know what? I think I'm relaxing Thank you for being so kind and patient.
Thinking about it, it probably is wood ash as I haven't found any clinker or partly burnt coal lumps. I should recognise coal ash too as we only had central heating put in a couple of years ago and used to have one of those bloody awful parkray coal fires.
Well I've got the muck and a strong back, hopefully this time next year the soil might look a little better.

Thanks again, Skarloey.

P.S I see you've had a couple of responses to your orchard question ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Hi Skarloey

Found Ya!! Sounds like it's bonfire ash to me aswell....don't panic!!

GH
PS Currently at work...not at all busy at all, 10 hours down only 3 1/2 to go