ROSE HELP PLEASE

[mickthecactus]

I am not well versed in rose growing so perhaps Rosefan and Rosefriend could help.

10 years ago we had our 25th wedding anniversary and friends bought us a couple of roses. I moved them to our current house and planted them central in the 2 beds outside the greenhouse 5 years ago but they are really struggling now and last summer with a hosepipe ban here did not help at all.

Can they be rejuvenated or is it just age?

[sweetleaf]

mickthecactus said:

I am not well versed in rose growing so perhaps Rosefan and Rosefriend could help.

10 years ago we had our 25th wedding anniversary and friends bought us a couple of roses. I moved them to our current house and planted them central in the 2 beds outside the greenhouse 5 years ago but they are really struggling now and last summer with a hosepipe ban here did not help at all.

Can they be rejuvenated or is it just age?

I cant help with the roses too much, mick except to say that they are usually incredibly long lived and would definitely be worth trying with.
WOW 35 years? Incredible! You must have got married young....

[mickthecactus]

23 and Mrs cactus 22. Young enough I suppose but that's what we wanted. Son and daughter are 33 and 31 and grandsons 7 and 5.

Blimey - where did all the time go?

[Rosefriend]

Hi,

Oh definitely try not to lose them - you can always throw them away if need be. Roses can grow to ripe old ages. There are some Roses here in Germany in Hildesheim that are over a thousand years old.

I would cut them in the half (not knowing how big they are) and then them go over the winter and make sure that the bud grafting is under earth the whole of the winter.

Then in early Spring, - using strong secateurs and a couple of whiskies inside you, cut everything off about 3-4 inches above the bud grafting - if you are unsure cut a little higher but NOT under, otherwise all that is left is a wild rose. This will automatically encourage the sleeping eyes to grow and with TLC, a good fertilizer and water, they will grow into new plants.

A couple of pics would be marvellous if that is possible. They could just be having problems with a little too much growth up top and some weak roots.

Good luck

Rosefriend

[mickthecactus]

The problem is the lack of top growth which has been slowly dying back over the years.

Possibly they have been planted a lttle too high. Would that cause it? Any particular fertiliser?

[Rosefriend]

They could have been planted too high but if they are not happy I wouldn't risk taking them unless you are very quick.

If you do want to risk it - cut the top growth off - again watch for the bud grafting - otherwise you can forget them. Then dig them out and you will have to cut the roots as well in this case - there is a proper way - but it is easier to say - halve them and cut on a slant - it encourages growth.

Get them back in again quickly with a slow releasing fertilizer - preferably a good rose fertilizer - it is worth it. Put the roses back and cover loosely with earth and then water so that the earth goes between the roots. Then add more earth until they are fully covered.

Otherwise if you don't want to risk it, then cut them right down over the bud grafting and mound up earth around so that they are covered higher.

Probably it will be ok as the temperatures will not sink so much in the UK - well hopefully not.

Rosefriend

[mickthecactus]

Rosefriend, I have pruned them diligently and even gave them some manure last year.

My feeling is that it is lack of water. Being a cactus grower I tend to under rather than over water.

[Rosefriend]

Oh - manure and too little water don't really go together. Depending on what kind of manure it was, and how much.

A friend's daughter dumped piles of horse manure on her roses which in small amounts is marvellous - however I think she used enough for all the roses in Kew and then she realised that she has burnt the roots.

She actually didn't lose one rose but I kept her watering the roots for a while to try and wash away at least at bit of her over indulgence.

As far as I can gather there has been a fair amount of rain in the UK, which should have helped. I would still prune back hard which will help to start new growth, and I would possibly leave any fertilizer until maybe March/April next year and then again whilst the first blooms are flowering and after July no fertilizer at all.

I never use any fertilizer at all after July so that the new growth has a chance to harden off before winter.

I must admit that I have never lost a rose yet because of not knowing what to do or doing something wrong - if I lose roses it is mostly to the cold or very wet conditions.

Rosefriend

[Deleted]

Hi
You don’t say what type of roses you have but I suppose they are tea hybrids.
A 5 years old rose is quite well established but can be moved though. It is advisable to do the moving in the dormant period (late autumn or early spring) by digging up the plant as carefully as possible in order to damage the roots as less as possible. The plant should be prune hard, by about two thirds. After digging, the roots should be cut back too. Keep the plant horizontally in one hand and the secateur vertically in the other hand. By cutting this way, the sloping roots will have sloping cuts and so the ends of the roots will come firmly in contact with the soil and that will encourage growth. There should be a balance between the roots and the above the soil part, the roots should be able to provide enough food for the up the ground part. It is important that during the transportation to the new location to keep the plants moist and do not let them to dry out. At the new location, dig a hole big enough to accommodate the roots and deep enough to cover the bud union with about 5 cm of soil. Deep planting prevents wind rock, encourages shoots from the base and prevents frost damage as well as plant suffering from drought. After planting and watering mound with earth at about 20 cm high until spring.
You say that they have been possibly planted a little too high. How much high? Where is the bud union? Did you prune them? When and in which way? Have they had any new shoots in the last years?

You can try to rejuvenate them by cutting down, in spring, the canes older then 4-5 years and cutting back to 10-15 cm the younger canes. Give a good fertilizer.

As for watering, the roses do need water, especially in the growing periods (April-May) and then at the second bloom, (end of June- July). A sprinkle every day will only encourage the roots towards the surface and will do more harm than good. If there is no rain, roses need a good soaking once a week or so with about 20- 30 litre of water and so the water will get to the roots and be effective.


I hope that what I have tried to explain here, along with what Rosefriend has said, you can find out what is wrong with your roses.
Let’s give them a chance

Rosefan

[Deleted]

V. interested in this as I have an old rose that was neglected during previous ownership - and I thought (a bit like lavender) that you never cut back into 'old wood' - it was always the idea to cut the newer more flexible if not new, wood, leaving a few buds. Of course, that severely limits the options re shape, let alone "best practice".

So, and I'm not challenging the combined might of Rosefriend and Rosefan (who would) but before I take to the loppers, have I understood you correctly,

a) as long as you keep above the graft you can cut back really hard to stimulate fresh and perhaps more manageable growth? and

b) is it really ok to do that now? - I thought if you missed the autumn 'window', you should wait until Feb/March to anticipate growth, but minimise the chance of frost damage to the fresh cuts...

dd

[Rosefriend]

Hi DD

In normal conditions one would prune roses in the Spring - years ago one was taught to prune in the Autumn as well. Nowadays it is better to just prune growth back a bit so that storms cannot injure the plants and prune properly in the Spring.

The bud graft on a rose should always be around 5cm under the ground as Rosefan quite rightly says. In those 5cm are the blind eyes and once a rose is pruned right back to ground level or it freezes right back as do some of mine occasionally then it is from these eyes that a new shoots with grow.

So yes DD one can prune hard back into "old wood" - there is no problem. Only never under the bud grafting. I would cut back to 10-15 cm as Rosefan says, for a rejuvenating cut.

As far as timing is concerned, as I have said I would not do that now , although one can in theory prune roses back when they are semi dormant or dormant. I would leave it until Spring because of frost etc. If you are prepared to cover the rose up with soil etc then it would probably be possible in the UK. I wouldn't do it in Germany, - it can be far too cold and I would have thought that Rosefan would have the same problem.

I hope that has helped a little - perhaps Rosefan has some other advice that will help.

Rosefriend

[mickthecactus]

Thank you Rosegirls. I will have a good look at them next weekend.

There is 1 HT and 1 floribunda. I think they are Sexy Rexy and Silver Wedding or Anniversary but I may have confused that with a Pieris that somebody else got us.

[Deleted]

Instead of throwing your prunings on the compost heap, why not use them as cuttings - nothing ventured nothing gained as the saying goes.

BTW I prune my roses early spring.

[fozzie]

The age of the plants is not a concern, they live for a long time. If they were not planted deep enough then you would have seen many suckers from the base of the plants. If you are not seeing these then do not worry about depth of planting. As the Rose girls have already said I would reduce the length of all shoots by at least two thirds preferably to an outward facing bud. In terms of timing I would hold back until Feb. The fertilisers I use are Fish Blood and Bone and chicken (sh) manure pellets.
As Rita said when you prune them take six inch lengths of the prunings(!) and used them as cuttings.

I cant believe I am helping to save and propagate a HT!!

Sorry just humour me.

In my youth when I had HTs , I didn't know any better then. I used shears to prune so don't be worried re pruning.


Hope all goes well.
Foz

[Chuckles]

fozzie123 said:

I used shears to prune so don't be worried re pruning.

I recall a year or so ago I saw a gardening programme on Roses and the guy used to just take a petrol/electric hedge trimmer to the climbers ;D

[fozzie]

BB

Climbers are a differnt beast I would not suggest using shears on climbers, HTs and Floribundas yes, as they will flower on new growth. Climbers can flower on old and or new wood so need a different pruning regime

Foz

[Deleted]

greety said:

fozzie123 said:

I used shears to prune so don't be worried re pruning.

I recall a year or so ago I saw a gardening programme on Roses and the guy used to just take a petrol/electric hedge trimmer to the climbers ;D

I think I saw a similar program, a trial was done, some roses were pruned using secateurs and others using hedge trimmers - surprisingly the latter did better!!!

[mickthecactus]

Thanks Guys. Really grateful for your help - it looks as if it is lack of water and feeding as I seem to be doing everything else OK.

Using the prunings as cuttings is an excellent idea Rita. What do I do with them? Just stick them in the ground?

[fozzie]

The quick reply would be yes just stick them in the ground. To expand: the method I use is to reduce the length to about 6 inches, the bottom cut is straight and just below a leaf joint, the top cut is at an angle and just above a leaf joint. This is only so you know which way is up!! You can remove all leaves, or like me leave the top leaves on. ( comfort factor I like to see the bit of green, they are deciduous so leaf will fall off in time)The cutting should be approx pencil thick. Now you have a choice; use a nursery bed or the area close to parent about 18 inches away from parent plant. I do a fair amount of these so have a "nursery plot". The only difference is that in nursery you must use labels if next to parent then no labels required.. Now planting, I use a hand fork or trowel, which ever is close to hand (sorry!) produce a "V" shaped hole approx 5 inches deep, fill the bottom 2-3 inches with coarse sand NOT builders sand put in cutting so 2 inches are above ground , firm soil back around cutting top dress with a little Fish Blood and Bone , then water in. The last thing I do is to utter the following incantation "Well its up to you know, you've got two chances". This seems to work. I always get a better than 50% success rate. so I would advise that you use a minimum of 3 cuttings per plant.

Good Luck
Foz

[Deleted]

Yes - good luck Mick

[mickthecactus]

Thank you Foz and Rita. I will report back in due course!

[mickthecactus]

Well, now I know that the depth planted is not a problem.

My daughter moved house yesterday and has acquired a decent sized walled garden (15'!). Guess who will be looking after it?

Anyhow, in the front garden are a number of roses, all fine and already pruned (previous occupant was an excellent gardener) but they all have exposed roots - some of them quite sizeable.

Final rose question then - the walls also have roses trained up and apparently pruned but how should they be pruned in future?

[fozzie]

Mick.
It depends on the type of climber or are they ramblers?
Ramblers tend to produce a more spindly shoot that is very pliable, they will also produce flowers on last years growth. Therefore do not prune hard if at all. I just remove dead wood and any congested or weaker growth. Any major surgery is to keep the plant within its bounds. Modern and HT(!) climbers will produce flowers on current years growth. Just reduce main stems to keep them within bounds but reduce side shoots to one or two buds.
This year I would let them go and just see what you have got.
I will always advocate that the shoots of any Climber or Rambler grown against a wall be trained as horizontal as possible, this will force the plant to produce buds along the length of each shoot, as opposed to the top only, this will give you maximum wall coverage and allow you to see the flowers.
Assuming these are mature plants then I would remove one main shoot every year to encourage regenerative growth from the base.
Hope this helps

Foz

[mickthecactus]

Thanks Foz. That's excellent advice.

Looks like they are climbers rather than ramblers. They seem to have been pruned to a number of short spurs over the years. However, they have been trained vertically rather than horizontally as there is also ivy (nicely trimmed though) taking up a fair bit of the wall. Not sure what do about the ivy yet.

[fozzie]

Mick,
as I said I'd do nothing next year , you will then be able to judge the value of the Roses as is and the ivy as a back drop to the Roses. When you have decided what to keep and what to loose, then you can go into the pruning routine. Just as a trial I would choose one of the verticals and prune it back to the height you want it. This will force the side shoots out along its length.Train as many of theses as needed horizontally for the width you want, as you would for a Fan or Espalier fruit tree. You will not get so many flowers the next year. But after that, if you prune the secondary side shoots to the one or two buds regime, the wall will be a blaze of colour. Feb/Mar is the best time to carry out this type of pruning as you can see the buds appearing.

Glad to be of help.

Foz