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Post by andy on Jan 27, 2007 18:19:03 GMT
2 years ago, the park that i work opposite had their rose garden completely re-vamped. All the roses and pretty much all of the soil down to 12" deep was replaced. David Austin roses came down, supplied and helped plant the 3,500 roses and the garden, despite no irrigation system, looked awesome.
But when it came to pruning the roses.....David Austin roses said "HEDGE TRIMMER"........just cut the lot down to 12" with a hedge trimmer.
Now this goes against everything i've ever been taught......cutting to an outward facing bud, no crossing branches, remove the dead etc etc......forget it
Now i'm not a rose guru or do i reaaly profess to liking roses that much but surely this is wrong !!!!
Discuss
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Post by Chuckles on Jan 27, 2007 18:34:47 GMT
I'm no garu either andy but don't think I could do it either.....saying that I had seen method used on a TV programme before, it may well have bben someone from DA. I look at my Iceburg climber which I have let get very over grown and think it would be so much easier just to get a trimmer to it
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2007 18:37:40 GMT
I always do it very carefully, out facing bud, no dead, not too high etc, but I only have about 20 rose bushes, if I had a park full I guess I might go for the trimmer because having seen the devastation it causes & then looked again next season & seen the wonderful show ,it does work. Perhaps the bushes wont last into old age.
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Post by sweetleaf on Jan 27, 2007 18:45:28 GMT
If roses needed to be pruned so accurately they would have evolved with a gardener complete with secateurs growing out of them. I had much better results from those roses that I pruned with hedgetrimmers than I ever had using older methods. Im not going back to secateurs this year, either, the roses came out of the winter in rude health and hit the ground running, so to speak where before it used to take some time for them to get going. ;D As for why, I think its because using hedgetrimmers leaves more material for the rose to regenerate from. Gardeners like things neat, so remove too much when let loose with secateurs.
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Post by Dr Bill on Jan 27, 2007 18:46:56 GMT
I tend to be a bit anal as well when it comes to pruning, but I have read somewhere that such meticulousness (is there such a word?) is unnecessary.
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Post by Rosefriend on Jan 27, 2007 18:51:27 GMT
Hi Andy,
Well the way that you have been taught is the way that I have learnt.
However two stories - if you will allow me.
Before I ever started with Roses my FIL had at least 150 and they were magnificent. He used to cut them with his hedge trimmers, - terrible mess, then his saying was "always water on the roots darling - hard water ".
Great all the roots and the bud grafting were free. Then NEVER use a spray for Black spot etc - always mix something in a bucket and use a handbrush - far better, as far as I can see, it went everywhere but where it should have gone.
When he got too old (85 and he is now 95) to work in the garden, I was allowed to go in as someone that knew how to look after Roses.
Well I must say that his Roses have never looked as good as when he looked after them.
The second story is my GC - Olaf learnt his trade in the UK and France and Germany. He specialised in Roses to start with and helped me learn all I know about Roses.
After I knew how to do things, he said - mmh well RF - I just get the hedge trimmers out - sorry.
It works just as well - only thing is, if there are not many, well tidy up a little because of illness.
I think, and you will know this far better than I Andy, there are some plants that just love some people and there are some plants that no-one, even an experienced gardener can grow for some reason.
Perhaps that is the fun of gardening - all the hard and fast rules - well they do not always help, do they? There is always an exception to the rule.
Perhaps that is what makes gardening so much fun??
Rosefriend
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2007 19:00:05 GMT
I've heard that this method of 'pruning' is every bit as effective as the traditional (and time consuming) method. I don't have hundreds of bushes to maintain(yet...) so I think I'll stick with the traditional way. Find it quite therapeutic, especially after a row with DH. Must be something to do with a sharp implement and branches to lop...hmm... Can totally understand why a park or large gardens would give the hedge trimmers a go!
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Post by Dr Bill on Jan 27, 2007 19:11:18 GMT
Find it quite therapeutic Yes, so do I. Quite a pleasant and rewarding task I find
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Post by andy on Jan 27, 2007 20:04:33 GMT
Can totally understand why a park or large gardens would give the hedge trimmers a go! But for the last 70 years, roses have been pruned with secatuers in the "correct manner" It takes about 10 gardeners of various ability about 3 days to prune the roses with a hedge trimmer and clear the prunings out. It takes the same amount of time for 5 gardeners to prune the roses to a reasonably good standard with secateurs, place the trimmings on the grass by the bed and have the rest of the staff remove the trimmings. So there's really nothing in it regarding time. Which method would you use. I'll get some pics of the garden soon.
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Post by fozzie on Jan 29, 2007 15:31:44 GMT
No "Correct" method, what ever your comfortable with. I use both methods, equally good results but shears quicker. I find shears difficult on climbers, although I would use them om HTs (spit). Dont forget DA roses are not real roses so depends on what shrubs you have.
F
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2007 15:57:11 GMT
Fozzie, can you please explain what you mean by DA roses not being real roses? Am an inexperienced newbie with 13 rose bushes (i know, i know, but i have fallen in love! )
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Post by fozzie on Jan 29, 2007 18:52:24 GMT
Hi RM, nice to see you on this board.
With regard to D A roses, my comment was a little tongue in cheek, however DA has engineered his "English Rose Collection". He recognised that the flower shape of the Gallicas , Damasks and Centifolias would remain very popular. They, (E R C) can be likened to modern HTs, where they all look very similar in form with some variation in colour and scent. Yes, they are Roses in the general term as is your Malmaison but at least she gives you an indication of her parentage and is not the result on heavy inbreeding to remove unwanted characteristics. I have an adversion to modern hybrids, I prefer Species,their sports (natural hybrids) and early hybrids, even with their faults and natural flowering seasom 3-4 weeks. Nothing later than circa 1920 ish.
Malmaison is a cross between a Bourbon Rose and a Tea Rose 1840 something, if memory serves. The bourbon, was itself, a natural cross between R.chinenis and a damask rose. A good companion for Malmaison is Quatre Saison, it happens to be a parent of the original Bourbon.
PS. Remember what I said to you on the beeb board, Malmaison does not like rain when in bud it will stop them from opening.
PPS If you have some time look up Constance Spry (the first DA English Rose) only flowers once but has a v good scent.
I'll stop now before you fall asleep
Foz
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Post by skarloey on Jan 29, 2007 19:03:47 GMT
Not boring to me Fozzie, quite the opposite that was very interesting. Blimey, you do know your roses. ;D Gardenhammerette is very like you but with veg seed and she's gradually brainwashing me too. I just like the idea of growing something old that hasn't been spoiled. I think I might have to look out for a new old rose now. But I'd like something that almost knocks me off my feet with its scent. Any suggestions? Any colour just BIG scent. ;D Skarloey.
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Post by fozzie on Jan 29, 2007 19:31:23 GMT
Skarloey, most of the early roses have a subtle, delicate scent but there are a few exceptions. I do a bit of looking for you what about size? ........dont worry, I'll look across small shrubs to climbers and in between. Got tp go now will get back soon as
Foz
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2007 21:01:55 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me, Foz! I am an avid rose enthusiast with very little actual knowledge. I kind of agree with you about hybrid teas, i much prefer the substantial shape of the old/english roses. I hope to pester you relentlessly in future!
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Post by Mr Grinch on Jan 29, 2007 21:20:38 GMT
Ive love Roses too rosemother ! More the Hybrid Tea's than Flori's or Old English but i think their all thorny fun !!! Mr G
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Post by fozzie on Jan 30, 2007 15:43:52 GMT
Starloey Scent is like beauty, all down to the beholder but this time using nose not eyes. Several people will have differing opinions of the same scented flower. The majority of the early (age) roses will have a delicate clean fragrance. There are exceptions notably amongst Moss, Damask and Hybrid Musk Roses.
I tried to find a few for you to look at but got carried away as usual. Those in bold I can vouch for as they currently grace my garden. They are in no specific order, but some have got onto my to buy list
Mme Hardy Blanc Double de Courbert Boule de Neige Prosperity Alba Maxima Perle d’Or Etoile de Hollande Quatre Saisons Gloire de Dijon Eugene Furst Gloire de Bruxelles Parfum de l’Hay Capiaine John Ingram Mme Issac Pereire Comte de Chambord Jens Munk Common Musk Marie Louise Paul Picard Rosa Centifolia Alba Semi Plena Mrs Oakley Fisher Felicite Parmentier Jacques Cartier Konigen von Danemark Maidens Blush Great Quatre Saisons Gloire de Dijon Eugene Furst Gloire de Bruxelles Frimbriata Blush Damask
Sorry for the delay the list just grew!! Foz PS you may need 2 or more of the smaller ones to get the full benifit on a Summers evening
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2007 15:57:19 GMT
Foz
That is an impressive Rose list ;D, can you help out with this request?
Wanted.... Climbing Rose (for Pergola), quite heavy soil (I have improved drainage with grit and compost), will be in afternoon/evening sun, must have perfume and ideally a very dark burgundy/maroon colour, second colour choice would be white.
Many Many Thanks GH
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Post by skarloey on Jan 30, 2007 15:59:22 GMT
Goodness me Fozzie!!!! ;D I've got some googling to do!!! Or perhaps you know a site that would be good for me to look at? Thank you very much for taking the trouble to find them for me. Would you know if I asked how many you have? Or have you lost count? ;D Thanks again, Skarloey.
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Post by skarloey on Jan 30, 2007 16:01:27 GMT
Foz Wanted.... Climbing Rose (for Pergola), quite heavy soil (I have improved drainage with grit and compost), will be in afternoon/evening sun, must have perfume and ideally a very dark burgundy/maroon colour, second colour choice would be white.GH 2nd choice not blue then?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2007 16:05:41 GMT
Foz Wanted.... Climbing Rose (for Pergola), quite heavy soil (I have improved drainage with grit and compost), will be in afternoon/evening sun, must have perfume and ideally a very dark burgundy/maroon colour, second colour choice would be white.GH 2nd choice not blue then? I should have said 'reserve' choice ;D !!!! You know where I want to plant a rose!!!!
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Post by fozzie on Jan 30, 2007 16:54:55 GMT
GM, I'll have to be careful that man of yours holding that cup! I watched him many a time playing for my team, he was past his best, (another clue!) but still good to watch.
Now its difficult to meet your first team choice of colour as it is with my team (no black). So I have let the scent be the main criterion, as a deep wine, claret colour try Etoile de Hollande Climber or Ards Rover a crimson bloom as for the whites (my team now) try Pauls Perpetual White or Mme Alfred Carriere climber Not ideal colours but hope it helps a little
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Post by fozzie on Jan 30, 2007 16:58:17 GMT
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Post by skarloey on Jan 31, 2007 9:45:01 GMT
Oh blimey we seem to have taken this thread off topic..... I'll start another one...... I have some questions!!!!! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2007 13:06:27 GMT
But when it came to pruning the roses.....David Austin roses said "HEDGE TRIMMER"........just cut the lot down to 12" with a hedge trimmer. It seems an interesting way, different from what we have all learnt I think that the HTs require the most, a careful and rigorous pruning. If you will use a trimmer and trim all canes at the same high and don’t do anything else, in the end there will be a bush with old wood (which will produce fewer and smaller flowers ) branches crossing the centre and probably diseases and pests will be present. You will have flowers but not for exhibition. On the other part, the species roses (those which grow in the wild and from which all the roses, about 30,000 cultivars today, were created) need little pruning. Usually the old garden roses don’t require a very careful and stringent pruning, usually they need a cut back by 1/3 or 1/2 depending on the vigor of the bush. But they still need that the old wood be cut away along with any damaged, diseased or dead canes. So probably they will do quite well if a trimmer is used. I have always used secateurs and tried to be careful with my pruning but now I think that my ‘Bonica’ . ‘The Fairy’, ‘Ferdy’ will do quite well using a trimmer. But the old, dead wood will still need to be removed. After all, the goal of the pruning is to have always young enough canes to produce good quality flowers and to have a well shaped bush. And many times the nature forgives us if we do something wrong and knows better than us what to do Andy, are those roses all English Roses? It would be interesting to see some photos now and also in summer. And it will also be interesting to see how they will behave in time. Rosefan
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2007 16:47:39 GMT
GM, I'll have to be careful that man of yours holding that cup! I watched him many a time playing for my team, he was past his best, (another clue!) but still good to watch. Now its difficult to meet your first team choice of colour as it is with my team (no black). So I have let the scent be the main criterion, as a deep wine, claret colour try Etoile de Hollande Climber or Ards Rover a crimson bloom as for the whites (my team now) try Pauls Perpetual White or Mme Alfred Carriere climberNot ideal colours but hope it helps a little Foz Thank you very much for your advice on my 'team' choices ;D, I shall have a look at your suggestions and make a decision, thank you also for choosing scent as the main criteria - I must confess that I do think there is little point to a rose that doesn't have a fragrance, the bloom would have to be very impressive!! I want to plant a rose at my pergola I'd like to have some fragrance wafting through the air when I'm sat out on a summers evening sipping a glass of wine!! I'm in awe of you having watched Bobby Moore play - I guess if he was past his best when you saw him you must be a Fulham chap ( I notice that you are in Lancashire and I'm sure he didn't ever venture that far North when he was playing in the UK!!) Thank you once again for your help GH X
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Post by fozzie on Jan 31, 2007 17:24:10 GMT
Thank you GM always pleased to help if I can.
Your right re team, we also had someone called Rodney Marsh and one George Best at or about the same time. Supporting players not on same planet so many a pass went astray!! I still follow them and get just as frustrated up here.
Off topic again sorry
Foz
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Post by Chuckles on Feb 4, 2007 23:29:13 GMT
Had a really good thinning out session on my Iceburg climber today it was well due for a tidy up. Have been quite harsh on some bits in the hope that it will rejuvenate it, had lots of top growth due to neglect on my part
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Post by fozzie on Feb 5, 2007 18:15:38 GMT
Chuckles, when your Iceberg starts to re-grow train it as horizontal as possible, you'll get more flowers at a level that you can appreciate them.
F
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Post by Chuckles on Feb 5, 2007 18:40:36 GMT
Thanks Fozzie, I now what you mean but it's a little difficult because it grows up the side of a wooden arch so only has a width of about 3ft max, it goes up this and the arch has double poles going from both sides, if you get what I mean. Most of the growth is above head height and I had let it get too high. I'm pulling down some of the newer growth and tying it in the cross poles
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