Climbing rose supports/ties

[Juliet]

A question for Fozzie, Rosefriend, & anyone else who grows a lot of roses ... sorry if this has been covered in the long rose thread which I'm too tired to read!

I have a very upright climbing rose which is now a lot taller than the fence & is getting blown about a lot whenever it's windy. All my other climbing plants are held onto the trellis by those plastic-coated wire twister-type ties, but this rose is now too heavy for these - every now & then the wind blows it to one side & they break, & it's not doing the rose much good either.

What is the best thing to use to tie big roses to trellises? And can you still get prop-type supports to help hold them up (like the kind you use to hold up an old-fashioned washing line, but a lot shorter, obviously)? My parents have something like this holding up an old rose in their garden, but it's about 40 years old & I've never seen anything like it in any GC I've been in as an adult.

[Juliet]

Is everyone on holiday?

[Rosefriend]

Sorry Juliet - I don't know what is for sale in the UK as far as plant ties are concerned, or props and they don't have them here, but I can give you two tips for holding really heavy roses stems.

One is an old t-shirt dyed green and cut into strips - it doesn't look out of place and obviously doesn't bite into the wood. The other is old tights - again cut into strips - they hold very well.

It is always difficult with climbers (not ramblers) as they just don't bend but roses always flower a lot better when the stems are as horizontal as possible - perhaps it is possible to "drape" the stems on the fencing and tie them into place.

I hope someone from the UK can help on the "tie" situation as well.

RF

[Chuckles]

;D an old-fashioned washing line I still have two of those Juliet. I guess you mean the old fashion wooden props with a V cut in the top end. The props are all plastic these day but you could buy some lengths of wood and cut a V out with a saw. If you have a local timber merchant I'm sure some kind sole would probably do it for you

Depending on how high your fence is how about fixing a narrower piece of trellis to the top of the existing fence for extra height, then tie the rose into the trellis with your usual ties.

Like RF I've used old tights cut into strips before and they last quite a long time too.

I know how frustrating it is when you get young growth snapped off by the wind. I often miss training some branches on some of mine, they seem to grow so quickly and if you try to bend them you end up snapping them off at the main stem or gettting a bend half way along

Any chance of a photo to give a better idea on how the area looks, it might help and bring forth some other ideas on what you could do

[Amo]

There is the other option.

Cut it back in February and retrain the new shoots next year sideways as they grow.



Please slap me back if that's too drastic Rosie or Foz.

[Chuckles]

Aug 31, 2008 14:45:18 GMT Amo said:

There is the other option.

Cut it back in February and retrain the new shoots next year sideways as they grow.



Please slap me back if that's too drastic Rosie or Foz.

the thought had crossed my mind too to cut it back but all I could think to say was " or you could give it a serious hair cut and train the new growth next year" but you are much more diplomatic and better with words than me Amo ;D

[Amo]

[Rosefriend]

Aug 31, 2008 14:45:18 GMT Amo said:

There is the other option.

Cut it back in February and retrain the new shoots next year sideways as they grow.



Please slap me back if that's too drastic Rosie or Foz.

Actually, as the rose is obviously more than a couple of years old it is a good option and one that I would seriously consider.

As that wasn't the question, I sidestepped the issue as well.

RF

[Juliet]

Thanks for the ideas folks (glad you hadn't all gone away & left me ). I'll try to take some pictures tomorrow but don't know how easy it will be to get them on here as Photobucket's not working for me at the moment.

It's not the new growth at the top being snapped by the wind which is a problem - it's the main stem of the rose - a really big thick one, which already leans slightly to the left - being blown sideways. When the wind gets strong & the twisters snap the whole rose keels over quite drunkenly - I'm worried it's going to blow right down & break off at the bottom - which is why I was looking for something like a prop (yes Tig, the ones with the V cut into the top - that's what I meant!) to hold it up. I don't think a bit of extra trellis at the top would help with this problem - I really need something substantial towards the bottom of the rose.

I cut the rose down quite a bit every February/March (as well as doing a lighter prune in the autumn) but it is very keen to shoot up to the sky - I guess buying a rose called Altissimo for a 6' fence might have been a mistake! It is a really lovely rose though & I'd hate to lose it.

An old T-shirt cut up sounds a good idea though, thanks Rosefriend - it would at least do temporarily, as I wouldn't be able to dye one green (allergic to dye). I don't wear tights! Might be able to find some old socks though ...

[Juliet]

PS Various different plant ties here: www.harrodhorticultural.com/HarrodSite/category/Plant%20Protection_Plant%20Protection%20Accessories/ - I wondered whether the Soft Tie stuff (towards the bottom) or the Flexi Tie would be stronger than the twister type - what do you all use (other than old tights )?

[fozzie]

Juliet,
apologies for not seeing your plea for assistance, I have been chastised by BB, not really true only joking. Two things first the ties, I use those adjustable plastic ties. As RF says you can use strips of material, a little variation on that theme that I use on the older climbers is to use the material to protect the rose then use an adjustable plastic tie to attach to the trellis. If it is not too late I would consider adding wire to the trellis for added support. I tend to make my own trellis from 1 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch wood and then add the wire to that. Those adjustable ties are useful cos you can "let them out" as the plant stems thicken

Now with regard as to what to do in the future. Well some of the girls have indicated a shortening of the stems, which I would agree with. I am assuming that you are not getting the full visual ot fragrance experience as they are so far up in the air. I'll now give you a couple of options for your consideration. You have a week or two cos I would not do anyuthing till Jan/Feb Option one reduce all the growth down to at least two maybe three side shoot buds. This will force her to start those buds or possible new shoots from the base. This new growth you will train as horizintal as possible, in a "fan" style, in time they will throw out side shoots and it is those that will produce the flowers. The other option is to reduce the main stems to say 12-18 inches below the top of the fence. This again will force her to throw out side shoots, these again you will train as horizontal as possible. This time in an "espallier" style. The timing would be as option one. In both cases you will get less flowers next year but at least you will be able to see and smell them. In the following years the flowers will increase. Oh one last thing, in both case "rub off" shoots that grow straight out/away from the fence.

Do you know what she is called and how old she, oh what a rude question.

F

[Juliet]

Hi Fozzie,

Thanks for your reply. I've finally managed to get Photobucket to upload my photos again, so here are the ones I took yesterday of the rose (she's called Altissimo, by the way - I think you missed that in my last post but one! I planted her here in late 2002 or early 2003, but she was presumably a couple of years old then).

A shot from a little way back so you can see her in situ:



As you can see, she wasn't a good choice for a 6' fence! - she's got very leggy, unlike the rose which you can just see on the right of the photo, which is White Cockade & fits nicely on a trellis of the same size. They've both had about the same amount of pruning - if anything, I've cut Altissimo back rather more - but White Cockade is bushy and remains fence height, whereas however much I cut off Altissimo she just shoots back up at the sky. There were some flowers lower down though - I'd deadheaded & cut her back a bit a few days before I took that photo!

Perfume isn't an issue at all, Fozzie - I am allergic to it so I only buy unscented or minimally scented plants. And I don't really want her stems to go sideways - there isn't room - so I don't mind too much the way she shoots up. I just want to stop her falling over.

Anyway, here's a shot from the side to show you how the main stem leans to the left:



And a close up from the other side:



The plastic covered wire ties I'm using are obviously wildly unsuitable. Please can you tell me more about the adjustable one you mentioned (or give me a link to a picture, so I can see which type you mean)?

[fozzie]

Gosh Juliet, you were up late. Just got back home from a night out on the town!

Altissimo was not a totally "wrong" option. She has a couple of good things going for her. One; she has single flowers which means she is ok in my book. But that is of no consequence to you whatsoever. Two; although always or mainly sold as a climber, she is equally at home as a tall shrub. Now by tall shrub I mean as tall as you want her to be. So from now on you can keep her pruned to say 5-6 feet. She will try to get to 10+ feet, but you have the Felco number 2's, so you are in control.

This is where things may get a bit "hairy". Do nothing till all those flowers have gone; you may as well enjoy them while they are there. You will then need to reduce all main shoots. If it were me, I’d go down to maybe 12-18 inches, if that’s too radical for you go to 4 foot, to give her a bit of space to grow into before reaching fence height. Now keep in mind you are training a shrub not a climber. If you only have two or three main stems, then so be it. Be brave and remove all weak, crossing and diseased shoots. As I said before reducing her main stems will encourage sub lateral side growth and hopefully new shoots from the base. Those new shoots from the base, if you choose to go this route, will not need training against the trellis. Being a “climber” she will flower on current seasons growth, it will be those side shoots that will produce the flowers for the 2009 season. As long as you bear that in mind you can train her to whatever shape and size you want. So the year after it will be that years sub laterals that will produce the flowers. So, when you prune either late 2009 or Feb 2010, remove at least one third, in length, from each shoot that has carried flowers. In time the side shoots will become very weak, but by then you should have some new main stems so those old ones can be taken out completely.

If all that sounds too much and you want to keep her as a climber you will still need to reduce her main shoots. I would do either of the length options above but this time when they grow back they will need training against the trellis.

These are those ties that I use; the close up of the package should give you a clue as to the supplier.






Just as a little tip, the harder you prune the more growth you will get as a result.

For what it is worth, seeing that Altissimo appears to have a climbing plant on each side of her, I would opt for the tall shrub option. You have all those lovely low level plants to hide her feet for the first year. As I have often said, it is very rare that you will cause any lasting damage. If the shrub thing fails she will not take long to remind you that she can be a climber.

White Cockade will never give you any trouble she will struggle to get past the top of the fence.

I know there is a lot here and I hope I have not confused the situation.

F

[Juliet]

I'm a night owl Fozzie, & I have sleep inversion (when you need to sleep during the day and are awake at night) so it wasn't that late! I see I was rather tired though - I meant "in context" not "in situ" - I'd hardly have been digging up the rose to show her to you out of situ <doh>

Anyway, thanks very much for the advice. I will certainly do some pruning, & I think I can manage to get her down to 4', though I don't think I dare cut her right down to 12-18 inches - not because I'm a nervous gardener! - but because we're still hoping to move house as soon as we possibly can, and I don't want people coming for viewings to see a great big bare section of trellis! I hope very much I won't still be here pruning in late 2009/Feb 2010 though (given that we were originally supposed to be moving in September 2007!!). But I hope to get an Altissimo for my new garden when we do eventually move so I'll bear your advice in mind then.

In the meanwhile, given that it's very windy here and the current Altissimo usually flowers until at least the end of November I'll try to fix her more firmly to the trellis with some old socks - at least until I can get hold of some of those adjustable ties (thank you for taking photos of them for me - that's really helpful). Just so long as I make sure I replace the socks with ties (as it were) before we start viewings again!

Do you think propping up that main stem with a wooden stake type thing will help too, if I can get hold of one? The whole rose leans over to the left so much every time the wind breaks her away from the trellis that I think she really is in danger of crashing to the ground otherwise. I'm not sure that cutting her down to 4' will make much difference to this either.

[Juliet]

PS Forgot to say - I like single flowers best too