OLD/MODERN ROSES COMMENTS & QUESTIONS

[fozzie]

Your comments and questions will be appreciated and I try and answer as best I can.
Foz

[Chuckles]

Well at the moment I'm speechless, you two have obviously put alot of work into these new Rose threads. They look amazing and I will have a better look later

[oldmoleskins]

Got there before me Chuckles, and while I'd been tipped off to expect something I'm astonished at the depth of information - it'll take me a while to attempt to absorb this, it's fascinating, hugely useful stuff, and well done you two - I'll post this on 'Moderns' as well...
OM.

[Deleted]

Fozzie, not only is this amazingly informative and clear ... but now I actually no a little bit more about my 'no-name rose' ... you both went to a huge amount of trouble ... cheers ...

[Rosefriend]

Well the tip off came from me OM as you know.

I asked Fozzie and Rosefan if they were prepared to do a Roses A-Z - something like that for GWD.

The word has gone around that Fozzie, Rosefan and I are the "Rose Experts" of GWD.

We are only hobby gardeners that just happen to really have a passion for Roses.

However I am really proud of Foz and Rosefan for their wonderful first postings.

Yes - first postings - there will be a lot more and I would ask that you all join in with your questions and queries and conversations about Roses in general.

Rosefriend

[lottielady]

Fozzie the thread is FAB! You have worked very hard, thank you for doing it for us all.

LLx

[Spruance]

I have already PM'd my personal thanks to Rosefan and Fozzie for these threads, but I would also like to thank them publicly as well for a magnificent effort.

These threads will be very useful for novice and experienced gardeners alike.

So again well done to you both.

[oldmoleskins]

Foz, Rosefan, can hardly bring myself to admit this for fear of upsetting you, but among the hidden areas of this newly acquired garden of mine are these neglected roses. I'm addressing this to both threads as I haven't a clue as to provenance, and in the hope that, in extremis, salvage tactics are similar:

near to but not against a shed (guess that's not a climber, then):



three against a wall, but no visible means of support (guess they're not climbers, then);



alongside a part of the driveway, chainsawed down last Spring from huge bushes to get them manageable:









Now, I can't tell you the age (though my guess is 30 years+) or the types, but they all flowered last year to some extent and appear alive and robustly healthy.

With renovation in mind, my questions are:
how far should I prune these back?, and
what 'aftercare' should I be prepared to administer to give them the best chance of demonstrating their worthwhileness?

OM.

[roxann57]

Hi Fozzie, once you have drawn breath - I'm looking for a very dark red scented climber that isn't too much trouble to look after any ideas?

[fozzie]

OM.
Thats a hell of a garden project you have there!!
As for the roses... well from here they do not look like modern shrubs, but it is difficult to tell without seeing them. Anyway the renovation will be similar and I sure rosefan will agree with what I am going to advise.
1. SHED rose. first remove all none rose growth from base so you can see the wood from the tree (sorry could not resist!). Assuming its a shrub then you should be able to see the original, or near as possible, stems/shoots, they will be much darker green even brown. Theremay only be three or four. Once you believe you have identified them remove any younger, lighter green stems that appear to be growing independant of the shrub. They are probably "suckers" from the root stock. THe best way of doing this is, not to cut them, they will only shoot again, but pull them out. Now going back to the shrub, I would reduce the main stems by anything up to a half and any new growth on main stems by about a third. Take out all dead and diseased wood.

2 Wall roses. Looking at the hips and leaves, they may well be climbers, some of mine are planted as close as that to get them to grow into each other. We will assume they are climbers, if wrong, I apologise now. Again remove all non rose growth from base. Now any new growth near the original stems in this case may not be "suckers" but the climber putting out new shoots. If they are a resonable distance from the main shoots then you can pull them out. They have obviously flowered last year any recollection of what they looked like?

3 Drive roses. Definite contenderes for Old Shrub rose, my only surprise being no evidence of flowering last year, unless the birds have eaten all the hips! Again remove all non rose growth from around the base. They all show sings of extra growth around the base. Being that old its hard to guess what root stock if any. I would remove as much as you want to to keep a good shape the deucr as Shed rose above.

Having removed all that non rose growth from bases you would have opened up the top inch or two of soil. Now, this will be the only time you hear me saying this. Use a proprietary rose rose feed, I know full of chemicals, but with that much neglect needs must. It will give them a quick boost. Follow this up with a dressing of either and or both Chicken pellets and Blood, Fish Bone. If your not happy re chemical boost use the Blood fish and Bone now along with calcified seaweed.

Hope this helps and that my guesses are correct

Foz

[fozzie]

Thank you all for the pleasing comments. As you all know they are my "darlings", so not such a hard task at all really. It just takes twice as long as it should, I keep looking at the pics.

Fx

[oldmoleskins]

Foz, thank you so much for that very full and practical reply - can hardly wait for daylight to get out there and start the renovation!
With your info printed out to refer to 'on-site', I'll report back any anomalies or questions arising...

OM.

[oldmoleskins]

fozzie123 said:

OM.

As for the roses...Drive roses. Definite contenders for Old Shrub rose, my only surprise being no evidence of flowering last year, unless the birds have eaten all the hips!
Foz

Just remembered - and well spotted fozzie - these were grazed heavily by the resident deer at bud stage last year, so although OH says there were a few flowers, I guess that would explain their nakedness... Will attempt wire caging this year while 'in recovery'.

OM.

[Deleted]

Hi OM

I agree with all what Fozzie has said.
First of all you have to remove all what is dead, damaged and very old. Look for suckers, they consume the energy of the rose.
The bushes along the driveway are definitely old shrubs. I would thin them a little and give the bushes a good shape.
As for the ones near the wall, I looked quite a lot at them and I would say, as Fozzie, that they are climbers, even if this is not sure. It seems that the one at the front flowered, but the flowers were only on the top of the stems. This would happen to a climber that should have the stems trained in a fanned or quite horizontal position when side flowering shoots would grow. I wonder if the others had any flowers. You surely should cut the fruits and I would suggest trying to train the stems as horizontally as possible.
If you prune them in the right way they will give you flowers if not will show you that you did something wrong and many times you can understand what to do just looking how the plant behaves. It will be helpful to see the flowers and then I am sure it will be easier to know what kind of roses they are.

[oldmoleskins]

Thanks for the additional info, rosefan...as far as the wall ones are concerned, I'll put some wires on the wall through vine eyes and tie them in horizontally - do I cut them back at all?

OM.

[fozzie]

Roxann,
Initial thoughts are Guinee or Etoile de Holland, they are HT climbers so should not be much troble to look after. also violette, but she is a rambler so will take a little extra care but only in pruning.
Foz

[roxann57]

Thanks Fozzie, I've been googling and I like them all. I can feel a GC visit coming on

[Chuckles]

I feel an addiction to Roses coming on from the Rose threads that Rosefan and Fozzie are doing are fab, thanks guys I can see I'm going to be spending some money before long ;D

[Susie Snowdrop]

I've just bought a climbing rose 'Bridge of Sighs'. Can't wait to see it in flower.

Could somebody tell me if it's repeat flowering please ;D

S x

[oldmoleskins]

fozzie, rosefan I've finally finished both pruning and clearing/feeding, and would welcome a critique - if you feel I should cut back even further, don't be afraid to tell me, and similarly if I've misinterpreted your instructions and butchered something, tell me (and anyone else following this tutorial)!

Firstly the 'shed rose' - I come to the conclusion this was an overgrown bush rather than a climber, but it was difficult to decide just how far back to cut - even removing something like half its overall bulk, it's still huge - and I found another small one hidden in the honeysuckle, so I've revealed that too:




next the wall ones - this is one of two I think may be ramblers or climbers as they have these pronounced 90degree spurs that seem to correspond with the "...but the flowers were only on the top of the stems. This would happen to a climber that should have the stems trained in a fanned or quite horizontal position when side flowering shoots would grow" previously mentioned. Other than de-hipping them and removing dead or congested stems, I'm leaving them to be tied into horizontal wires I'll be fixing to the wall on vine eyes over the next few days. The others along here seemed to me to be bushes, so I treated them like the drive ones that follow.





The driveway roses - rather like the shed rose it was difficult for me to decide just how far back I should take them, but as they were mainly chainsawed back to about 2'6" this time last year, I generally went for the "cut back to a pleasing size/shape" :















So, as I say, please let me know if I'm on the right track, and here's a supplementary for you: while cutting out dying wood, should you cut back just into the 100% good wood lower down, or right back to the main stem? I ask this because there were several places where a stem had died back from an old cut by a few inches. Sorry if this is nonsense - but if wood usually dies back from a cut, won't a cut very near the main stem encourage 'death' into the main stem?

OM.

ps you can see from the feathers that the sparrowhawk's still about...

[Rosefriend]

susiesnowdrop said:

I've just bought a climbing rose 'Bridge of Sighs'. Can't wait to see it in flower.

Could somebody tell me if it's repeat flowering please ;D

S x

Hi SS - sorry about not answering.

Yes The Bridge of Sighs is definitely a repeat flowering rose. It is a lovely colour isn't it - I hope it does well for you.

RF

[Susie Snowdrop]

Thanks RF..................I'll take pic when it's in flower

S x

[fozzie]

OM.
It looks ok, they will always look worse for wear just after pruning! The only comment I would make is that on the drive roses (in pics terms the one with daffs and the one above) you could still remove more weak "twiggy" bits. But its entirely up to you.
Regarding 'die back' they will always die back to next growing point (bud node). So always tryto leave one bud between main stem and point of pruning, its not vital as the next point of growth would be the main stem, so it will not die back into main stem.
The rose with spade in pic and the one below are looking their age (30 ish)I would expect them to throw up new shoots from the base of existing stems, if thats the case then you can PLAN to trmove the old Stens NEXT YEAR. All plants of that age need a bit of extra TLC, so feed them again in June/July time.

Hope that helps also hope that come June/July the fruits of your labours were worth the scars!

Foz

[fozzie]

susiesnowdrop said:

I've just bought a climbing rose 'Bridge of Sighs'. Can't wait to see it in flower.

Could somebody tell me if it's repeat flowering please ;D

S x

SS also sorry not to answer earlier not been here for a bit. RF is correct. All you have to do now is stand on the bridge and think of your rose.

Is the seaside near Oxford?

Fx

[oldmoleskins]

Thanks Foz!

OM.

[oldmoleskins]

oldmoleskins said:

fozzie123 said:

As for the roses...Drive roses. Definite contenders for Old Shrub rose, my only surprise being no evidence of flowering last year, unless the birds have eaten all the hips!
Foz

Just remembered - and well spotted fozzie - these were grazed heavily by the resident deer at bud stage last year, so although OH says there were a few flowers, I guess that would explain their nakedness... Will attempt wire caging this year while 'in recovery'.

OM.

What's it they say about a stitch in time, or making hay while the sun shines... these two, grazing on roses, just now...





OM

[fozzie]

Hi OM
Roses - Deer. Deer - Roses. Even I would have a problem deciding which. I 'm sure you'll find a compromise.

Foz

[Rosefriend]

Hi Foz and Rosefan - well just a quick question from me this time.

I have The Queen Elizabeth Rose - yeah I know, but it was one of the first Roses that I ever bought and has sentimental value - well that is what I keep telling myself anyway....

However there is a slight problem - it didn't flower at all last year - blind shoots. - or so I thought. I cut back and still I didn't get one single bud. The plant is healthy and has been fed enough and still no buds. It has flowered for the last ten years without any problem at all.

Any ideas as to what is the matter? I have cut right back now and can only hope that it will flower this year. It isn't the end of the world if it has to come out, - it is just annoying that I don't know what it wrong with it.

Only thing that I have in the back of my mind is that it could be a root problem of some kind?

RF

[Deleted]

Hi Rosefriend

I have two bushes of 'The Queen Elizabeth' rose in my garden. It is a nice rose and resistent to diseases (it was voted the world's favorite rose in 1979!) I like it and I understand you when you say you would like to keep it. I dont remember having blind shoots on them.
I recall reading about the fact that the cause its not known.It is supposed that fluctuation in temperatures or poor light can induce this.
if you say that your rose looks healthy i would not think about a root problem. Maybe it was because of some environmental reasons and The Queen Elizabeth may be much prone to blind shoots than other cultivars.
There is an interesting article about this in an American Rose Annual, here is the link

www.bulbnrose.com/Roses/breeding/blind.htm

It would be really interesting to see if it will flower this year, i would keep the rose to see what happens.


Rosefan

[fozzie]

Hi Rosefreind , sorry about delay, been doing some looking up re your question. It would seem to be prone tp HTs, possible why I never see it. Other possibilities are climate related. see what I have found

It backs up the article Rosefan found

"Blind Shoots is a problem most often reported in spring. Its cause is thought to be caused by low light levels and cool weather.This issue can be easily corrected by simply pruning back the Blind Shoots to a lower bud just above a five leaflet leaf and the next shoot will produce a flower bud".

"One of the causes of this is a cool spring but they may appear anytime during the growing season and sometimes may be difficult to detect. Instead of a bud at the end of a growing shoot, it terminates with small leaves similar to a husk of wheat. When you are sure the shoot is blind, cut it back by half its length to a strong outward-facing bud. By doing so, the new growth should grow and flower normally."

And saving best till last.....its really same as above but more techy
"Increasing temperature hastened flowering and the number of flowers in each flush was increased. At 18°C, 3–3.5 times more flowers per plant were harvested, compared with a constant temperature of 12°C, due to lower blind shoot formation at high temperature. With fluctuating day and night temperatures, an average temperature of 18°C produced approximately the same yield as a constant temperature of 18°C. Low temperatures released apical dominance and stimulated lateral shoot branching.
Day extension lighting with incandescent lamps (low R:FR ratio) inhibited lateral bud growth and induced blind shoot formation, while lighting with fluorescent lamps (high R:FR ratio) had the opposite effect. The use of red (R) and far-red (FR) lighting showed that FR inhibition of bud growth and flowering could be overcome by subsequent R lighting. These findings indicate that blind shoot formation is controlled by the phytochrome."
International Society for Horticultural Science


You may get more of a problem due to your location!!

Foz