OLD/MODERN ROSES COMMENTS & QUESTIONS

[Rosefriend]

This is the 1000 year old Hildesheimer Rose. The wild Rosa Canina L. or simply the Dog Rose.





Legend has it that on an evening in 815 Ludwig the Debonair returned tired after a chase and hid his personal shrine in a rose bush before going to sleep. The following morning he could not get it out as it was so tangled up in the rose. Taking this as a sign from heaven he founded a chapel on the spot and trained the rose bush around the chapel.

However using chemical analysis, it has been verified that the Rose is at least 400 years old, which is a little less than a 1000 years but still good going I think.

In WW11 the Dom was totally bombed and burnt to the ground and yet just 8 weeks later 25 new stems appeared. Obviously this rose was not grafted. These stems are marked with Tags showing the date they appeared through the ground.

RF

[Deleted]

Hi OM

here is my 'Valencia'









Sorry the latest photo is not too good the colour is a little darker in reality.

Rosefan

[fozzie]

oldmoleskins said:

... the art of grafting is disastrous... in my garden we have roses in all their beauty from June until well into October, but one only gets this when the rose is growing on its natural root. This prolonged bloom is the greatest gain, but on the grafted stock life is also a short one... Pharisaer, a beautiful rose was deformed 'on the briar' and had to be thrown away in a few years. On its natural root it is a lovely and stately rose for many years and may live as long as man...

It's from about 100 years ago - has it any relevance today?

OM.

OM
I agree with RoseFriend. Grafting was "invented" as a way to get quick returns on investment, otherwise it takes approx 7 years to get a new rose to market. Like most things it takes time to get it right and some of those early grafts, which may have caused that comment, would have been on unsuitable rootstock. Nowadays nost breeders will use tried and tested rootstocks. So the failure rate these days is very low. Its interesting to note that the rootstock used does vary from country to country. That 1000 year rose of RF used to be the type that was used by early breeders in England, hence that ref to brier in your quote. I'm told "Multiflora" is one of the modern rootstocks. Being both old and old fashioned I like mine on own roots. This means the first thing I do is take cuttings. Not difficult because at planting time you should reduce main stems to approx 6 inches hey presto ! 2 or 3 or more cuttings to plant at same time.

Foz

[oldmoleskins]

Looks more and more like 'Valencia' Rosefan... does yours grow in clusters?

OM.

[Chuckles]

WOW RF that Dog Rose looks absolutely amazing

[Deleted]

Hi,

Can anyone advise how to make my iceberg more bushy, as some stems got broke courtesy of the bloody dog.

Thanks

Sara

[fozzie]

Sara, I've been holding off in the hope that some else would jump in to help. As you may know I have a thing about HTs, but thats me, a rose is a rose, is a rose. Its all in the eye of the beholder. A couple of of questions; is she a shrub or climber? I have ruled out standard from the context of the question. I am guessing she is a climber. The plant would normally replenish any broken stems, this would apply to all forms. If she is a shrub then you can prune out the damage and new shoots should start to appear. !If she is a climber and has been there for a few years then you should have a few strong main stems. If the damage is at around those stems, then again she should try to replace those damaged shoots. Obviously its more difficult to force new shoots by pruning a climber at the lower extremes. However there is a trick you could use to force the plant to shoot. On those older stems you will see dormant buds if you score the stem above those (10 mm or so)to about 50% of the circumference no deeper than a say 3 mm using a SHARP knife. This will also work on shrubs. I use the method on established plants that have been growing for at least 4 years. but you could try if yours is younger. DO NOT BE EITHER TOO TIMID OR TOO BOLD with the cutting. If you can work in them, which I can't, wear gloves. You will need a SHARP knife.

Foz

[Deleted]

Thanks Foz,

Sara

[Chuckles]

Hi Foz, just been reading your comments on RM's Poorly Rose thread re Black Spot and pruning.

Suffered terribly this year with BS worst I've ever seen, have been picking leaves off like a mad woman and bagging them for burning. You mentioned summer pruning, is it ok to give a hard prune now. I have a climber that is almost leafless through me leaf pulling, it has a second flush of flowers in late summer and I'd noticed the new growth is now showing, would it hurt if I gave a real good prune and a good feed to try and help iradicate the BS.

Any help appreciated

[fozzie]

Hi BB nice to hear you again.

Ideal weather for BS mild winter then warm/hot very damp spring early summer. Like you all but Rugosa and species have been ravaged in my garden. I would use pruning as a last resort and target the worst affected areas much easier on shrub/bush roses. The Albertine in "poorly Rose" is a rambler and will recover fairly quickly and possibly in time to put on a good show next year. Climbers are a bit different they will, like HTs flower on same year wood. So your pruning would need to be prudent. Like all Roses the plant will increase itself by producing lateral growth from last years growth. I would certainly give it a go! but err on side of caution. look out for those "eyes" on the stems and leave enough for the plant to regrow from. You will loose some volume and quantity of flowers next year but it will grow back. If you have several main stems I would consider removing the worst infected stem at ground level, two results removal of infested stem and will force new clean growth. I use chicken pellets as a general feed with calcified seaweed and/or my old favourite blood, fish and bone as an individual feed. To be honest BB I would not worry re picking leaves off plant just tidy them up when they fall off, I know they look awful but so does a bare plant. The fungus does not over winter on the leaves nor in the soil the little devils hid in the stems. But your good hygene routine will help in general health of plants. Hind sight is a wonderous thing, if I had known what the conditions were going to be I would have winter washed with the bordeaux I use on the apples/pears. Instead I used my 1:10 milk/water mix, which will normally help to reduce BS . I know not how or why but it appears to.

Again another rambling reply, sorry, I hope it has helped a little.

Fxx

[Chuckles]

Thanks Foz, snips out tomorrow for a bit of prudent pruning ;D I was looking at this particular climber today and there is some really strong new healthy growth. Thanks for the advise

[Deleted]

could anyone tell me anything about this rose.
i know nothing at all about roses and this one was inherited with the garden.
i am so confused by the different types and how to look after it best.


it is a lovely bushy rose that has got to about 3 ft high and the same wide.it flowers from early summer sometimes right through until october.the flowers are small and have lots clumped together.
i have never pruned it in the four years i have lived here and i have no idea what i should be doing with it.
any help would be appreciated
thanks.xxxx

[Deleted]

Hi RBJ

It looks like a polyantha rose, which are short bushes with large cluster of flowers. They were popular at the beginning of 20th century but some varieties can be seen in gardens or found in centre gardens. They don’t need too much attention, yours seems to have been doing very well with no care from you.
If you look on Modern Roses thread there is a section about Polyantha Roses. All you need to do is a light pruning in the early spring. Remove what is dead, diseased or damaged and also the stems which are older than 4 years. Then cut back lightly the remained stems.

Rosefan

[Deleted]

thankyou thankyou thankyou.
that is brilliant.
i will go and look at the polyantha rose thread right now.
that has made my day.

i'm easily pleased ;D
xxxxxx

[Weeterrier]

I have just looked at your selection of old Roses Fozzie. Even the names are evocative, aren't they? I used to have a large border with about 60 of them, they were a delight. Sadly, my present garden doesn't suit them, I have tried, but the roses just don't flourish And I have marauding deer too.
No matter, the photographs are so lovely, that it gives me pleasure just to look at them.

[fozzie]

Hi Wee Fairy, thank you for yours comments. I was going to say look at some of the roses in Part 8. You should be able to find one or two to suit you and your environmemt. But noticed not posted part 8, I put it down to age! Am talking to RF on that slip up. So when part 8 appears you should find something. Just think on the deer as 'Auto Pruning'

Foz

[Weeterrier]

Auto pruning ;D Well, actually they have improved one thing, one of my Viburnums has never looked so good.
I dug out a new bed last autumn and ordered a few roses, and they seem to be doing not too badly. I have Boule de Neige, Ispahan and Compte de Chombard. Elsewhere I have a Hebe's Lip which does well, though it's a vicious beast, thornwise. And a Penelope which has, last year, improved.
I am struggling to get a Constance Spry going.
Before I had clay soil, wonderful. In all I had over 200 roses, the rest were HTs. And do you know, when i moved away, the new owner dug them up and threw them in a skip to lay slabs for her caravan. I could have wept.
Now, the soil is very loose, and doesn't really hold water. Though everything else grows fine. But my new bed is next to the shed, and the water runs off the roof into the bed, giving more chance of moisture to the roses. Fingers crossed anyway.
Do you grow many roses, and are they the old ones? Have you ever had "Frances P Lester"? It is one of my favourite ramblers.
Oh, and I have just remembered, I have a Stanwell Perpetual, which has been in four gardens with me, I always dig it up. A spindly scabby grower, but the flowers are delicious, and it is an old scottish variety, so I have a soft spot for it.

[fozzie]

I have the opposite ground conditions, always damp if not wet. So this year has been a nightmare. Stanwell Perpetual was one that I was thinking of when I replied yesterday, plus berhaps a rugosa or two! Its interesting that you mention Penelope and Lester as they are related, both are/have musk in their ancestry. Penelope is sometimes called a Hybrid Musk and Lester has a Hybrid Musk as its seed parent. I have a soft spot for a musk rose in fact I have several R.moschata. There is a great debate over the Musk Rose. The one I grow is what I call the western, once flowering musk. The musk that was used by Pemberton would I think be the eastern (China/Japan) repeat flowering Musk. One of his plants was then used by the Lester nursery to produce your favourite rambler. The issue with Constance is possably her Floribunda parent requiring high amounts of nutients. The other parent a gallica would not be so fussy. I am sure you know Constance was the first commercial output from David Austin.

I find it difficult leaving any behind, let alone the volume you left. And to see them in a skip well! Even the HTs would nearly bring a tear

Foz

[Weeterrier]

That's interesting Fozzie, about my favourites being related. I am very drawn to the simpler roses, which look almost like Apple Blossom. I like to see the stamens. But, who can resist the big pink blousy flowers that you can sink your face into? Choosing is so difficult.
That's why I had so many hybrid teas, because I could have more bushes in less space, they were in a very long narrow border. Amongst my favourites were Ellen Willmott, Dusky Maiden, Dainty Bess, Dairy Maid, Lilac Charm. I would sit for hours with the Phillips/Rix handbook and my Rose Catalogues, ordering far too many. I wish I'd had my camera then.
I didn't know that David Austin's first English Rose was Constance Spry. I'll try feeding it copiously this year, see if it helps. The flowering is transitory, but worthwhile.
Must be lovely to have all your knowledge

[fozzie]

WF,
Some kind words most of my information comes from me Granddad and lots of second hand books (charity shops). And lots of working with and observing the plants. Like you I always spent too long lookingand too much money in rose catalogues my choice is Peter Beale. Talking of observation you must have seen the likeness between Ellen and Dainty, Dainty is the seed parent of Ellen. the pollen parent is a well known Tea so a bit tender. Here are a couple of similar HTs, thses are the only ones in my garden.

White Wings
Mrs Oakley Fisher
Here is a site you might like to explore, I am a frequent visitor

www.helpmefind.com/rose/index.php

Foz

[Weeterrier]

Thanks Fozzie, I'll have a look there. I have one old book that I found in a secondhand bookshop, and that is where I saw some of the hybrid teas I had. Luckily, the growers still have them, though they don't illustrate them in their catalogues.
Talking to you has made me want to send away for some of them again. I used to just walk round the garden in the evening and look at them all. Dusky Maiden is a beauty, because the stamens stand out so well against the dark petal colour.
I have found Peter Beales to be the best too.
Lovely to talk about roses again. When I move house in the future, I'll have to check the soil, make sure its suitable. ;D

[purplejulia]

Pruned some of my roses today and took the advice Adam Pasco, the editor of Gardeners World Magazine.

I took some hardwood cuttings from the prunings and hopefully will get more rose bushes. I am particularly hopeful that I will have success with one of my favourite roses "Big Purple". I have let the bush get a bit too tall and was afraid it might be spoilt by the windy weather. The cuttings are insurance against that.
PJ

[oldmoleskins]

deeply embarrassed to admit I don't know if this is a remarkably preserved old bloom or a recently emerged one... suddenly, today, it was just there:



The honeysuckle behind it is just coming into leaf...
OM.

[Weeterrier]

Looks to me like a summer one which didn't open because of the rain. but it's determined not to give up.

[Rosefriend]

As you say WT it was determined to show a little colour.....I had one in the corner of the terrace......all mouldy and then a short spell of warmer weather and it managed to produce a half hearted little flower although the splash of colour was a welcoming sight.

However it does make me wonder if this isn't a sign of times to come. I always cut my dead blooms off, and bush roses that have shot up due to a particularly wet summer I always crop a little in Autumn because of possible wind damage. If our winters are going to become warmer and warmer then when will we prune our plants, or will we have roses flowering over Winter and just prune and feed them a little in the spring to give them a bit more energy for the following year.

Or do Roses and Co. disappear for palms and exotic plants to grow in their place?

RF

[Deleted]

purplejulia, I'm delighted that someone else has been premature with the secateurs! ;D I went out last week and had a go with mine. All my roses suffered terribly last season with blackspot (I garden on hard clay ) so I was fairly drastic in removing the worst affected stems. I really hope that they do better this year

As an aside, I just bought 'Maigold' for 1.99 in Morrisons! Will heel it in as soon as this torrential rain allows. Thought it would look beautiful over my soon to be bought shed ;D

[purplejulia]

RM - my roses were badly affected by blackspot too, but I hadn't realised it was to do with the clay soil. I did put in as much compost as I could. The garden is still new to me - moved July 2006, so there are still a few surprises. Most of the roses were planted by me over the past 2 years. The bed also has some penstemons which suffered badly with powdery mould last year. I suppose I will have to do something about the drainage this year or I will never eradicate the blackspot on my roses.
PJ

[fozzie]

Pj,
Blackspot is a fungal disease and nothing to do with the growing medium, in fact roses possibly do best in clay soils. BS will thrive in damp hunid conditions, so last years and this years warm/hot wet spring/summer are ideal breeding conditions. Opening the plant up by pruning will improve air circulation and reduce the BS conditions. Keeping the plant healthy will also help. Contrary to popular belief BS does not overwinter on the leaves or in the soil. But it does on the stems,so hard pruning of worst infected stems will help. Having said that it is best to keep the bed tidy, what those fallen leaves will do is keep the environment moist. There are many chemical on sale, or if you are adverse to them try a ratio of 1 part full cream milk to 9 parts water as a weekly spray. This year I am going to experiment with a weak "Bordeax mixture" given that I use it as a winter spray on fruits from the same genus/family it might work.

Foz

[Deleted]

Sorry purplejulia, didn't mean to give the impression that the clay was responsible for the blackspot. It's more a case that with the torrential rain last summer, the ground was warm and drenched pretty much constantly, so ideal for the evil blackspot Let's hope this year gives us a better season Which roses have you planted, pj? I'm a fairly new convert myself! ;D

[purplejulia]

Thanks for your advice Fozzie. I have been told that you milk can be used to get rid of powdery mildew on my penstemons.
I have taken cuttings of 2 of the roses from my garden. If these cuttings take, will they be prone by blackspot too?
PJ