OLD/MODERN ROSES COMMENTS & QUESTIONS

[fozzie]

I bet you are paying less than me. Our allotment supplier charges £25 per load. Which I think is a ton. Re Iceberg, are the leaves changing colour (bloody colonial spell thingy) then dropping or just dropping, you've had some funny weather recent. If and when you really think she is going to join the choir invisible and you are happy to take a gamble. Cut her right down to a foot and a half or even a foot. Scatter BFB keeping clear of stem(s) watered in with liquid manure. If at your lottie you store your cut nettles in buckets of water, then that will do nicely.

Bubble wrap will be brilliant, when in Darwen I wrapped the pots in the Evening Telegraph then bubble wrap. Never lost a one!

[Barbara]

£30.00 a trailer load, Foz. good stuff though, I have nettle and comfry teas by the bucket full, lordy the smell, the leaves on iceberg have blackspots, I'm told all David Austins roses do, I clear them away every time but it doesn't seem to help.

[Ron]

Barbara ,,  your Iceberg climber is prone to blackspot and sometimes mildew. I don't know how hard you prune it but I have read an article which suggests over zealous pruning can be the cause. Modern roses store the energy they need for growth in their canes. If you keep cutting away a lot of the canes to keep it smaller than it is intended to be it becomes malnourished and susceptible to disease. If allowed to grow larger it may actually outgrow the infection and be a much happier plant.

[Barbara]

I've never pruned it at all, Ron, it climbs over the back fence, to be honest I didn't know you had to prune climbers.

[Ron]

Even climbers need pruning, Barbara , they eventually suffer without it, becoming thick, tangled and overgrown, parts becoming excluded from light all of which encourages disease. This is a useful article which gives guidance. www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/advice-and-inspiration/pruning-english-climbing-roses/

This article is also specific to your problem www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/gardeningadvice/10336325/Thorny-problems-should-I-prune-my-climbing-rose.html

If you want to get new canes, a little alfalfa powder mixed into the ground at the base of the rose will encourage them to grow.

[Barbara]

This is iceberg fozzie, and Ron,

[Ron]

Yes, Barbara , you can see the blackspot. Iceberg grows much bigger than that, do you feed it? Probably needs a spray with fungicide but long term, fertiliser and a foliar feed like Tomorite or seaweed extract will give it the strength to fend off disease.

[fozzie]

You may well have paid young Mr Austin for your Climbing Iceberg but it was not one of his introductions. It was a sport of a Floribunda (also called Iceberg). Sadly it did not bring with it the fragrance and disease resistance characteristics of the Floribunda. I tend to train my climbers in a regime that is a cross between espalier and fan, erring more to espalier by trying to get the shoot/canes as horizontal as possible. Normally on two or a max of three main stems. Once the framework is established I let it go to do its thing. The pruning is really just to keep it to the shape and area that I want it in. The physical pruning over and above the 3 D's is to remove crossover to prevent damage. Anything else is to shape and restrain!
Looking at your photograph(s) you have some decisions to make and work to do. The plant is not dying although showing blackspot on canes. So where possible remove the most infected canes, leaving two or three "main" stems. Try to train side shoots horizontal, removing those that are growing "into" and "away" from fence. There are many chemicals "allegedly" to cure BS. If like me you are not keen on chemicals in your garden or beer ! there are some alternatives in the case of BS I use a ratio of 1:2 milk/water but it must be Bovine, none of yer substitutes here. It can be fat or skinny or anywhere in between, sprayed on weekly. Some people advocate baking powder and soft soap mixed in water. I find the milk/water mix works. Household waste bin for diseased canes and leaves including those on the soil. You can do the pruning and training now, start feeding in early Spring (Feb).

[Ron]

Blimey fozzie , milk as a fungicide? No wonder they say it's good for you

[Barbara]

OK fozzie , will start ordering  more  milk from  tomorrow and start  the hacking back too.

[fozzie]

I once used good owld fashion smog (lots in Fulham). Clean air act, bloody politicians, put pay to that! I carried on in the same theme by using Sulphur based fungicides, EU got rid of that. I thought what can they not get rid of I know milk, so milk it is mixed with water. Then I discovered someone beat me to it by some distance, I hope they have not thought of soft soap to control aphids or alliums for the same control. I use garlic and chives.

lactoferrin maybe the reason milk works and is definitely good for you and me

[Barbara]

Am I waiting till spring to cut out the canes with blackspot ?.

[Ron]

Generally pruning is done in early spring as it promotes new growth which you don't want while frost is still about. I'm not so sure though in your situation, Barbara , maybe Fozzie will know better. There is a good article here about roses and black spot which tells you how to treat a severe infection. www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/flowers/roses/black-spot-roses.htm

The article recommends Green Cure as a natural fungicide. Unfortunately I can't find it available in the UK.
And Fozzie's milk solution is explained here as well www.organiclawndiy.com/2013/08/how-milk-treats-plant-disease.html
Interesting reading.

[Barbara]

Thanks Ron, think I'll wit till spring, the nights are very cold here just lately, I will start the milk spray though, just hope the local cats don't think it's for them.

[Ron]

Oct 3, 2016 7:19:28 GMT Barbara said:

I will start the milk spray though, just hope the local cats don't think it's for them

Hahaha, yes, Barbara, if you see them licking your plants ... still, at least rabbits don't like milk (I hope!)

[fozzie]

Autumn pruning is usually carried out to prevent wind damage. Not a problem in Fulham! Darwen was a bit more exposed but still not a major issue. Your Iceberg is protected by the fence, even tied to it? Anyway there is no wind in Lancashire , so as Ron said Spring is fine. At the risk of you shouting at me and I know I keep saying it....Remember to be more vigilant than usual when clearing away infected leaves!

[Ron]

The spores will be in the ground too and will survive the winter so you need to treat the soil. I use watered down Jeyes fluid though strictly you are not supposed to.

[Barbara]

I have some of that Ron, will use it watered down, I don't know if it's relevant but, the tree in the garden at the back is a sycamore, and it's leaves are always covered in black spots.

fozzie, My garden is like a wind tunnel as we are high above the road, it even moves the clematis sideways along the fence.

[Ron]

Sycamore leaf spot is relatively harmless, Tar Spot fungus (Rhytisma acerinum) which is not BS. I don't think it will affect roses.

[fozzie]

Barbara ,Wind Rock as its known will loosed the bush or shrub as it sits in the ground and possibly damage roots and lower stems. Climbers are normally safe cos tied to a framework or fence. Just make sure her feet are firmly in the ground, she is secure against fence and watch out for any damage caused by crossing shoots rubbing. (Similar to wet jeans!) As Ron said the spots on sycamore are not connected. As the name indicates it appears on Acers. I try not to contradict or enter into conflict on the board, life is too short. (Did it once, but that is history!) But in this case I must beg to differ; BS spores do not over winter in the soil. They lay dormant on leaves and canes that lay on the soil, ready to be spread by wind and water splash. If you are concerned about missing any debris or want to play side, apply a thick mulch in Spring to stop any distribution, from debris, by wind or water

[Ron]

Oct 3, 2016 12:20:38 GMT fozzie said:

But in this case I must beg to differ; BS spores do not over winter in the soil. They lay dormant on leaves and canes that lay on the soil, ready to be spread by wind and water splash.

Fair enough, fozzie, but according to the BBC Gardening website: 'Spores overwinter mostly on the shoots, but can survive on fallen leaves and within the soil.' I may be wrong but will continue to treat soil just in case!

[Auricula]

HELP I'm not keen on roses and have never grown them ( except Angelface who is still in a pot )
My son has inherited some shrub and climbing roses. I pruned them a bit and told him they're pruned hard in the early spring....but.....is this correct ??
Any help in how to treat roses would be appreciated as I've said I'll initially look after the front garden ( even though they are 320miles away ) until they have more time.I don't want to dig up the roses but need to know how to deal with them. All I know is that they're quite big and I should guess they're quite old / well established.Thanks

[Ron]

[Ron]

Auricula , these two links will explain in detail what to do better than I can. Note that both shrubs and climbers aren't normally pruned hard like HTs and floribundas.

garden.org/learn/articles/view/1281/
garden.org/learn/articles/view/1291/

[Auricula]

Thanks Ron, I'll give the links a try

[fozzie]

Auricula, taking you at your word viz " I know nothing" then we will try this approach... Start anytime around Feb/March

"climber"

Where there is only one thick old stem going down to ground level, go easy with the secateurs and lopers, as it may not regenerate if cut hard back. Instead, shorten all stems/canes by between a third and a half. Err towards a third.

If it is multi-stemmed, aim to take out one or two of the oldest looking stems (i.e. grey, flaky bark) to as near to the base as you can, leaving a min of 3 and max 6ish.

Next year... If she responds with a lot of growth but no flowers the odds are she will be a Rambler. (Nothing to do with a lot of old anoraks wandering around). If she puts on less vigorous growth and flowers on the new growth, then she is possibly a climber.

Shrub/Bush.

The large roses might be any number of types, from hybrid tea and floribunda to species and shrub roses.

Take out two or three stems as close to ground level as you can or to younger looking side stems low down. Again leaving 3 mim

Shorten remaining stems by between a third and a half. This time you can err on half.

If next season she puts on lots of vigorous regrowth that flowers well, chances are she is is a floribunda or hybrid tea. Otherwise she is likely to be a shrub rose of some description.

Feed all pruned Rose plants, then mulch. I use Blood Fish and Bone and /or Calcified Seaweed as feed and garden compost as mulch.

Now.. when you say large are we talking 8 foot tall 4 foot wide or the other way round? Do they flower once or continuous or just repeat later?

[Tig]

I think your last question will have to wait until the newcomers have been in the garden for at least a year fozzie, it is a voyage of discovery for them, and Auricula

I read about the Iceberg Barbara has with some amusement, mine is a thug and despite hard pruning it takes over the bottom end of the garden, and escapes into some of the neighbours, every year! It doesn't get fed, heaven only knows how exuberant it would be if I did feed it, but it does get blackspot, problem is it is in an area that is shrubby so little chance of clearing up fallen leaves effectively. As I now have quite a collection of roses I have decided to let them fend for themselves apart from pruning, which for me tends to be climbers quite hard, ramblers just to keep in check, shrubs to fit the space they are allowed and others to be bowl shaped, all get spindly growth chopped out, oh and tackling early aphid attacks! I think some you buy are weak specimens anyway, others are stars. Luck of the draw perhaps? Looking forward to my bareroots arriving next month, if only I knew how to prune the bareroots themselves, as last time I got some they were so long I was digging forever to get them below ground!

[Ron]

Tig, I'm no expert in this area but I know that some do root prune new roses before they plant them. Sometimes a rose will arrive with a thick tap root and few of the fibrous roots needed for taking nourishment from the ground. Supposedly trimming the tap root encourages more fibrous roots to develop. fozzie might know more.

[Auricula]

Thank you all I'll keep you informed.... probably by asking stupid questions ( now I know why I'm not a rose fan )
No idea about flowering fozzie, ( although one has lots of buds and is in flower at the moment ) The climbingy thingys are up to bedroom window height and the stand alone in the bordery ones ( see how technical I am?? ) are about 6' by 3' although I don't know when they last had any attention as son and dil have only been there for 2 weeks.

[fozzie]

Tig , Your post - music to my ears "just let them fend for themselves"! Reminded me of those chats we used to have a few years ago. You know my approach just keep them in their place. As you know I do not pamper mine, apart from first year. I have been known to use hedge trimmers as a pruning tool. I have never seen anyone running around the foothills of the Himalayas or English country lanes with pruning shears and/or secateurs. They survive fire, flood, drought and animal attack, so I let them get on with it. I only tend to intervene when they start damaging themselves with crossing stems.(climbers and ramblers).Root Pruning I always have done but as most of mine will now be in containers its a must. As Ron , says it forces the production of fibrous roots, used to take up water and nutrients, so gives them a kick start. I tend to be a cavalier and reduce the tap by 6 inches or so or to about the thickness of a pencil, I knows vague, so maybe just less than your pinkie. Then trim the other roots to match the symmetry of the root ball, the tap straight down and fan out the others in the hole If you are concerned about major trimming just trim till your happy then plant it. If you have to bend the tap little so be it it will find its way down, just loosen the soil at bottom of hole.

Go on, do tell. What will be in the post? From Norfolk? I am waiting for 2 off R.grouse and 1 off R.Belle de Crécy. Not sure about rear garden yet Mrs F likes R.Parkdirektor Riggers so that is probably that problem solved!